Other:Scouts

Discuss questions around local unit policies for budgeting, reconciling, etc. This forum should not contain specific financial or membership information.
jvoran
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Other:Scouts

#1

Post by jvoran »

Re: audits in our stake, quite often we have a large balance in the Other category (with several units) under sub categories: Scouts, Scout Camp, Flags, etc... For several audits, covering 3 to 4 years, not much has changed. I've been suggesting to the clerks/Bishops to use these funds within the year iso letting them carry over. Should I not be doing this?! I know the Other category is strictly for pass-through funds but perhaps with Scouts its a little different?
lajackson
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#2

Post by lajackson »

jvoran wrote:I know the Other category is strictly for pass-through funds but perhaps with Scouts its a little different?

The rules are not any different for Scouts. Although you are seeing something that happens a little more often than I personally believe it should.

However, just because they are pass-through funds does not mean they cannot come in during one year and be spent during the next. Some of our Scouts begin putting their portion of the cost of the annual camp into the AMFA in the fall, but it is not spent until the following summer.
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aebrown
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#3

Post by aebrown »

jvoran wrote: I've been suggesting to the clerks/Bishops to use these funds within the year iso letting them carry over. Should I not be doing this?! I know the Other category is strictly for pass-through funds but perhaps with Scouts its a little different?

The rules aren't different for Scouts, but there's also no absolute rule about spending the funds within a year -- they are just to be spent "promptly" for the intended purpose. In my opinion, the restrictions on what such funds can be spent on are more important than when they are spent (although timing is clearly important, too). Such funds can only be spent for one annual camp and for equipment for such a camp.

If the funds can't be spent soon enough on appropriate uses, then the surplus funds have to be refunded (which can be quite an accounting mess) or sent to CHQ. The precise local policy (within Church policy, of course) is determined by the stake president, bishop, and audit committee chair. I'm not sure what your position is, but I don't think an auditor should make such a determination on his own without consulting with the audit committee chair.
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johnshaw
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#4

Post by johnshaw »

Our stake was exactly the same way. I was greatly bothered by the 'Generic' nature of the categories in Scout Funds (and other categories, but mostly scouts). Thanks to the CUBS transition around the same time I started cracking down it became nearly impossible to figure out the historical usage of the accounts. We decided to draw a line in the sand and moving forward accounts would be created with the intended purpose rather than the generic term, for example:

Scout Camp 2013 (funds might still be collected in 2012, but the account is for the 2013 camp)
Garage Sale Fund Raiser for Youth 2012 - note on the sale said, all funds will be used for Scout Camp and YW Camp in 2012, remaining will equally be distributed among the 2013 funds

When dealing with a large Funds, I have provided counsel to Stake Presidents and Bishops that, as of this date, in Priesthood and in RS walk in, explain the issue, and that it has been building, get the sustaining vote of the members that funds as of this time designated in a general category (Scout Camp) will be moved to a specific category (Scout Camp 2013) and left over funds will move to a specific category (Scout Camp 2014) year after year until depleted. To me, this is a good compromise between a need to refund, not having a good trail to follow-back, and trying to use the funds in the way they were given. Bishops and Stake Presidents have the final decision making.

BTW, you likely have wards that continue to fund raise, year after year while funds exist in the AMFA. I believe this is a larger problem than should exist. The obvious conclusion to draw from it is that Budgeting isn't truly being done. There is no evaluation of funds to activities, but an assumed fund raiser to cover the YW/YM activities, effectively meaning that wards are fundraising to have increased Budgets.
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#5

Post by russellhltn »

JohnShaw wrote:get the sustaining vote of the members that funds as of this time designated in a general category (Scout Camp) will be moved to a specific category (Scout Camp 2013) and left over funds will move to a specific category (Scout Camp 2014) year after year until depleted.
I don't know as there's any verbiage in the handbook or precedence for that. Unfortunately doing that does set a precedent for not refunding in the future.

JohnShaw wrote:To me, this is a good compromise between a need to refund, not having a good trail to follow-back, and trying to use the funds in the way they were given.
I thought the instructions were when refunds were not practical was to send the funds to CHQ.
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wrigjef
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#6

Post by wrigjef »

Over a year ago in a training meeting with our regional Audit Trainer, who had just returned from meetings in Salt Lake, very strongly suggested that all other accounts should be cleared at the end of the year. The Stake President took this seriously and through me, informed the units of this (local) requirement. Since then there have been exceptions made when the AMFA sub-account is very specific as mentioned above (scout camp 2013) or (regional single adults clearing acct 2012).
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#7

Post by jdlessley »

JohnShaw wrote:Garage Sale Fund Raiser for Youth 2012 - note on the sale said, all funds will be used for Scout Camp and YW Camp in 2012, remaining will equally be distributed among the 2013 funds
This does not follow the direction provided in Handbook 2, 13.6.8. A fund-raiser is to help pay the cost of one annual camp or similar activity or equipment for annual camps. I find it hard to stay within the bounds of that definition if the fund-raiser funds exceeded the funding need for one year that they could be rolled into the next year.
JohnShaw wrote:When dealing with a large Funds, I have provided counsel to Stake Presidents and Bishops that, as of this date, in Priesthood and in RS walk in, explain the issue, and that it has been building, get the sustaining vote of the members that funds as of this time designated in a general category (Scout Camp) will be moved to a specific category (Scout Camp 2013) and left over funds will move to a specific category (Scout Camp 2014) year after year until depleted. To me, this is a good compromise between a need to refund, not having a good trail to follow-back, and trying to use the funds in the way they were given. Bishops and Stake Presidents have the final decision making.
I think Russell addressed the sustaining vote issue.

Rolling funds from one year to the next does not meet the requirement to disperse the funds in a timely manner nor the requirement that funds be collected for a specific purpose. As far as I can tell there is no compromise between using the funds for the specific purpose or refunding the money. Either it is used for the specific purpose, refunded, or in those situations where the donors cannot be determined or located it is sent to church headquarters.
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johnshaw
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#8

Post by johnshaw »

RussellHltn wrote:I don't know as there's any verbiage in the handbook or precedence for that. Unfortunately doing that does set a precedent for not refunding in the future.

I thought the instructions were when refunds were not practical was to send the funds to CHQ.
This was a one time event that had to do with the CUBS upgrade making the history unavailable. It is not in any way a precedent for active on-going practice or policy, though reading back through it i see the confusion, particularly the dates used in the example. sorry bout that
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#9

Post by daveywest »

I have advised ward clerks in my stake to not allow their unit to carry over any more than necessary to pay for the following year's camp. I've suggested they direct their scout leaders to used excess funds for camp related expenses. Those may include:

Scout Trailer registration and maintenance
New Tents, dutch ovens, lanterns, etc. for use at camp
Improvement projects at our local church camp that the ward camps at the same site each year
Other camp related expense as authorized by the bishop

If the unit cannot spend all their funds after considering the above, I then recomend they conduct a service project as directed by the bishop to dispose of funds.
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#10

Post by jdlessley »

daveywest wrote:I have advised ward clerks in my stake to not allow their unit to carry over any more than necessary to pay for the following year's camp.
I am not sure I understand what direction you are providing. Are you advising that fund-raiser funds in excess needed for 2012 summer camps be rolled over to fund any or all of the funding for 2013 summer camps? If so, I do not see how this is even a loose interpretation of Handbook 2, 13.6.8. More specifically note the first numbered item of paragraph one which limits the funds raised from one group fund-raiser "[t]o help pay the cost of one annual camp or similar activity as outlined in 13.2.8."

I would also ask if this direction is being provided after counseling with the stake president?
daveywest wrote:I've suggested they direct their scout leaders to used excess funds for camp related expenses.
Please note Handbook 2, 13.6.8, second numbered item of paragraph one which limits the use of funds not used to pay the cost of one annual camp to being used "[t]o help purchase equipment that the unit needs for annual camps as outlined in 13.2.9." The first, third, and fourth line of items you list do not fit the definition of equipment in 13.6.8.
daveywest wrote:If the unit cannot spend all their funds after considering the above, I then recomend they conduct a service project as directed by the bishop to dispose of funds.
Again, this is not one of the two purposes for which fund-raiser funds may be used.
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