Is Remanufactured Toner Acceptable?

Discussions about setup, operation, and maintenance of these devices in meetinghouses other than a FHC
User avatar
aebrown
Community Administrator
Posts: 14689
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:48 pm
Location: Sandy, Utah

Is Remanufactured Toner Acceptable?

Postby aebrown » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:18 am

Particularly with HP MPFs, purchasing HP-brand toner is considerably more expensive than remanufactured toner available from a variety of places online. But is it acceptable to use such toner? Are there potential warranty or policy problems with using remanufactured toner? I scoured the Copier FAQ and couldn't find any mention of this issue in the actual posts.

However, in this post from the Copier FAQ, there is an attached document that contains this statement:

Do not use refilled or remanufactured toner cartridges as this jeopardizes the warranty.


And in this post, we find this even stronger statement:

LDS Copier Administration wrote:It is against Church policy to use refilled or remanufactured toner in copiers because if something goes wrong with the toner and it damages the copier, it also voids the warranty for repairing such damage. It is unlikely that you will find less expensive HP toner anywhere than from our toner vendors, En Pointe and Corporate Express.


That quote is from a post that has since been deleted, made by a user that has since been deleted, but who was speaking as a representative of LDS Copier Administration. The post pre-dates the existence of the Copier FAQ.

So does using remanufactured toner simply "jeopardize" the warranty, so it's not recommended, but not explicitly forbidden? Or is it absolutely against Church policy, since any problems caused by such toner will void the warranty?

This seems to be an important question that should be addressed directly in a FAQ post, especially since a recent post from a member (certainly not a representative of the Church) strongly recommended getting cheaper toner from unofficial sources. Given the savings he mentioned, he must be using remanufactured toner.

If indeed Church policy requires that we purchase only OEM toner, a closely related question would be if it is acceptable to purchase OEM toner from places other than those we are directed to by LDS Copier Administration.

User avatar
Mikerowaved
Community Moderators
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:56 am
Location: Layton, UT

Postby Mikerowaved » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:02 pm

Alan_Brown wrote:Are there potential warranty or policy problems with using remanufactured toner?

The short answer to this is no. The US government passed legislation to ensure that it's illegal for a manufacturer to force you to buy certain supplies. This was actually passed in the 70's for mainly dealing with replacement automobile parts, but has been shown to apply to printer consumables as well.(See Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act United States Code Annotated Title 15 Commerce and Trade Chapter 50 Consumer Product Warranties 15 Sections 2302.)

For example, Hewlett Packard's warranty reads: "For HP printer products, the use of a non-HP toner cartridge or a refilled toner cartridge does not affect either the warranty to the customer or any HP support with the customer."

I can't speak for the church regarding their policy on printer/copier consumables because I don't have the slightest clue. I can only answer the first part of your question.
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.

russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 20743
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

Postby russellhltn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:42 pm

I know at one time the church asked us to buy from the recommended suppliers even if we could get it cheaper locally. The thought being that the more we ordered from them, the better price the church could negotiate.

However trying to convince people to sacrifice a portion of their ward budget to benefit units that didn't have a local office superstore can be a tough sell.
Have you searched the Wiki?
Try using a Google search by adding "site:tech.lds.org/wiki" to the search criteria.

User avatar
jtwitchell
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:05 am
Location: Chandler, AZ USA
Contact:

Are you getting what you are paying for?

Postby jtwitchell » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:18 pm

Here are some thoughts on the topic to consider when purchasing remanufactured toners...

Quick Disclaimer: I currently work for a company that has contracts where we test how remanufactured cartridges compare with genuine cartridges. I have done some of the comparison tests myself.

There are a couple of methods that cartridge remanufacturers use to create their toner cartridges. One popular method is to take someone's used cartridge, add toner (of their own make) and put a new sticker on it. There are a couple of problems with this.

  • Number one, you don't know the condition of the cartridge when you get it. It could have been reused three or four times. There are parts inside the cartridge that will wear out and affect your print quality. The more these parts get worn down, the worse your print quality will be. Seals will wear out and cause other issues not expected.
  • Next, the toner they use will be different than the one the original manufacturer produces. One thing we noticed with a printer using a remanufacturered cartridge was that there was a different smell when the remanufactured cartridge was used. The size of the toner was also not consistent, so some of the halftones looked different.
  • Another thing to point out is the mess. After we ran some of the remanufactured cartridges, the insides of the printer were messy. At work, this didn't matter too much becuase I expect to get toner all over me. If I was doing those tests in my Sunday clothes, I would be upset. (If you need good tips on how to get toner out of clothes, I have some really good suggestions....)
So I guess the question comes down to if spending $30-50 dollars is worth the chance of things going wrong. Not all of the time will you run into these problems. There are some manufactures that create a completely new cartridge. Some have worked betters than others (test at your own risk). The advantage of getting it from a single source is that the quality will be consistent. The Church is very good about negotiating discounts. In the end, I found that using the genuine supplies were better for print quality and keeping the printer in good condition.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Copier Admin-p40
Church Employee
Church Employee
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:59 pm

reman toner and copier warranties

Postby Copier Admin-p40 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:03 pm

This is not an official/approved response like the FAQ material, but I will try to cover some of these points with some helpful info--

1- We at HQ copier admininistration have not yet heard of someone finding OEM (original manufactuer) toner cheaper than what our resellers (Corp Ex or En Pointe) can sell it to our members for. (The only exception I have heard is if someone or their brother-in-law works for a copier/toner company itself, and can use that contact; but that is very rare.)

2- Remanufactured toner is a tough area to mess with.
- There are toner pirates that try to scam our members.
- There is some gray area: sometimes a tech will fix a copier that has been damaged by reman toner and not charge the local unit, and sometimes they wont. Sometimes the vendor (sharp, Xerox, or HP) will charge for cleaning or repairing the machine after it has been damaged by reman toner, and sometimes they will void the entire remaining time on the warranty for any repairs period.
- Buying toner online exposes the purchaser to risks: who are they really buying it from; is the cartridge warrantied; is the copier the cartridge is used in warrantied; is is cheapo drill and fill toner; etc.

3- Because of the above problems, Copier adminstration has asked that members only use our approved toner ordering process (800-537-7192) as it guarantees that the toner will be purchased for the lowest price possible, that it will be OEM (vendor approved/maufactured original toner), and that the warranty is not jeapardized or placed in any uncertainty or the whims of a technician that may not be familiar with his companies own policy.

4- These Church copeir program policies are approved and disseminated, but getting the word out and having that policy followed correctly by thousands of local units is something else. From feedback we get from our toner resellers we find that many local units are buying from office supply stores, or online, or some other way, and paying too much or getting reman toner that may work out in not damaging a copier, but may not. The world does not come to an end because this is done, it just costs more and, as noted, jeapordizes the warranty depending on circumstances. Reman toner is just not a good idea and should be avoided. (We also get people asking our help when they used reman toner and it ruined the machine, and there is little we can do for them.)

5- OEM Toner can be purchased from other sources than the approved channel, but units will find it costs more and that is one of the reasons we discourage it. There are others but they relate to business and contractual reasons and are confidential.

6- Lastly, sometimes when people are told our reasoning, they don't like them or think they could do it better, or they use them as an excuse to ignore policy. Rest assured we have done the homework and found the best methods by which to administer a complex program throughout a complex and very large church.

I have invited our HP contact to comment further about their toner, or correct me if I have made an error, if he so chooses.
Copier admin

crislapi
Senior Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: USA

Postby crislapi » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:18 am

Copier Admin wrote:This is not an official/approved response like the FAQ material, but I will try to cover some of these points with some helpful info--

1- We at HQ copier admininistration have not yet heard of someone finding OEM (original manufactuer) toner cheaper than what our resellers (Corp Ex or En Pointe) can sell it to our members for. (The only exception I have heard is if someone or their brother-in-law works for a copier/toner company itself, and can use that contact; but that is very rare.)

5- OEM Toner can be purchased from other sources than the approved channel, but units will find it costs more and that is one of the reasons we discourage it. There are others but they relate to business and contractual reasons and are confidential.


Just want to put some numbers to this. Our copier uses the HP Q5945A cartridge (no X version). If I buy it from Staples or Office Max, the cartridge costs about $230. If I order it through Corporate Express, it only costs $150. That's some pretty good savings! I was impressed. Oh, and paper is $30/carton (10 reams).

scion-p40
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:56 pm

Postby scion-p40 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:45 am

Floor models aside (they cost more), I don't understand why people will pay materially more for toner on an ongoing basis than necessary. If HP printer toner costs, say $50 each, but is available remanufactured at $20 each, that is a savings of $30 per toner cartridge. On a printer that costs between $100 and $500, it doesn't take many cartridges to set aside the cash to replace the machine-- whether it's due to cartridge failure or other problems.

I do realize that lease contracts frequently require the use of a certain quantity of materials purchased directly from the lessor. The number of prints can typically be identified on such machines, so the lessor knows if the lessee is buying supplies elsewhere.

crislapi
Senior Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: USA

Postby crislapi » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:42 am

I assume that, as is the case with printers, the companies really make their money on the ink and not the purchase of the machine. It is therefore most likely part of the agreement, or contract, the church has signed to get the deals they get is that we only use original, official parts.

Just because we at the ward level didn't sign the contract doesn't excuse of from abiding by the terms. We are given more than enough money in our budgets to cover the costs. Besides, those who don't abide by the terms jeopardize the entire program for the rest of us.

Copier Admin-p40
Church Employee
Church Employee
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:59 pm

toner prices

Postby Copier Admin-p40 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:30 am

A few things:

Staples has purchased Corporate Express, so when members call to order toner they will hear a live greeting something like "Corporate Express, a Staples Company". There might be a day sometime in the future when our members will be able to buy toner and drums from Staples stores at the same prices as the Staples/Corp. Ex call center and online, but not at this time.

Copier Admin cannot post our toner prices on the LDSTech Forum, but those with copier/printer responsibility in the local units can compare prices by checking a staples/office max, etc. to see what they cost there, and then call Staples/Corp. Ex. call center (800-537-7192, opt. 1, 1, 1, give them your local unit number, and they can give you the prices). Make sure you are dealing with exactly the same toner, since HP has the A and the X, and the X has a higher yield and is a slightly better value. Then do the math, but make sure you are using current prices obtained from the Corp. Ex call center. Remanufactured toner salesmen and telemarketers are not good sources of toner info and should be avoided.

Currently, there are no leased copiers, mfps, or printers located in US and Canada meetinghouse material centers or stake suites unless a local unit has done their own thing outside the approved program (very rare).

Copier admin

shawnlg-p40
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:36 am
Location: USA

Postby shawnlg-p40 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:23 am

I have an HP color laser/scanner/copier at home. It takes 4 cartridges, each costing about 90 at OfficeMax. I purchased a bundle of 4 off-brand ones for $200. One by one, each started leaking. I'm not a fan (any more) of the cheap ones.
Shawn


Return to “Printers, Copiers, and Multi-Function Devices”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest