Discuss questions around local unit policies for membership (creating records, transferring records, etc.) This forum should not contain specific financial or membership information.
coletheelder wrote:Now you're telling me that those Prospective Elders that are age 19 "are automatically moved into the HPG." I wish we could have gotten all the 'automatics' out of the way at the beginning of this thread. What are the other 'automatics' that I need to know about and where are they documented?
Way back in my first reply to your first post in this thread, I said, "If no ordination occurs, he will stay in the Priests Quorum until he turns 19, at which point he will become a prospective elder and be moved to the High Priests group organizationally (not by priesthood office, of course) because the HPG is responsible by default for prospective elders."
So I think I did mention the relevant automatic move at the beginning. There is no other automatic move for MP quorums because of age. As others have mentioned, the Handbooks document the policy for prospective elders, and MLS simply implements it with the automatic move.
coletheelder wrote:OK, and just where can I find out "about older brethren in an entirely new topic."? This topic causes a lot of angst among our leaders and leaves a lot to be desired in terms of guidelines. I think you'll have to admit that older "members are in the HPG simply because of their age", and that's how I was also interpreting what you said.
Not every post stands on its own. We're having a conversation on a topic. You started the topic by mentioning someone who turned 18, and my responses have been in that context.
Questions that can benefit the larger community should be asked in a public forum, not a private message.
I'm sorry I misinterpreted your wording, "and be moved to". I took that to mean a manual move by me. I tend to interpret the words I read literally, and since I didn't see 'moved by the system' or 'moved automatically' in the context of your original explanation, I was led astray. Thank you for the follow-up.
In my post #26, I raised a question about the HoH statistic in the Unit Statistics Report in relation to "When to Move a Child Record to Head of Household". The HoH statistic increases when a 'child' record is made their own HoH, irregardless of their age.
All of the early posts in this thread, from what I read, mentioned different circumstances such as YSA wards, full-time missionaries away from home, military service, etc. But no one has connected those situations to their effect on a statistical measurement for each Unit.
I've tried to find other threads containing keywords related to the Unit Statistics because I thought that perhaps I was straying too far afield. I found no significant references elsewhere, so I'm including it here because I think it is relevant to the original question.
Is a Unit's HoH statistic in the Unit Statistic Report a non-issue. Does it have some meaning to someone, somewhere? Or, am I the only one noticing that when a child record is changed to a HoH record, that change affects a unit statistic?
coletheelder wrote:In my post #26, I raised a question about the HoH statistic in the Unit Statistics Report in relation to "When to Move a Child Record to Head of Household". The HoH statistic increases when a 'child' record is made their own HoH, irregardless of their age.
Correct. But the well-being of the member(s) is more important then any stat. The Church has not given a precisely defined mechanical process for deciding when a member "graduates" from being a child to becoming a HoH at the same address.
In my opinion, any leader who primarily bases their decision on how it affects the Unit Statistics report is leading for the wrong reason.
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This has been an interesting thread, with good insight, and we have been all over the place. Years ago I was taught that it is the responsibility of the bishop to make the decision when an older child is listed as a separate HOH. (for those living within his ward) He does this by looking at what is in the best interest of the member. If an unmarried member is living at home and the bishop wants the family to be home taught together then they are grouped as a family. If the bishop feels that a member needs separate home teachers then the member is listed as a separate HOH. This is my understanding.
Disclaimer: I'm writing this because I think it would be wise for those in charge of the directory system to consider the implications of having adults in the same household as their parents (and for others to know several of the implications). I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. Those in charge of the directory system can do whatever they want with this matter—I still sustain them, whatever they choose. (I mean the same for my bishop concerning his decisions about household placement and home teaching, too.)
Why are any adults grouped in the same household at all (other than husband and wife)? The process could be automated (just have it automatically split them up when they turn 18), and then we can spend our time on something else besides deciding who goes where (I've been a ward clerk a few times, myself, too, granted, away from home).
Anyway, I, for one, am now 35. I lived away from home for seven years (and I was only going to school for about the first two of those years). I returned. Then, they put me in the same household as my mother again (that has been the state since 2011).
What this means is that I can't set my own privacy settings. So, because my mother has everything she can unlisted, I can't list my address (so, no one can find me through the directory, even though I want them to). Since my Mother has a different last name than I do, that means people will have difficulty finding my phone number and email address, even though they're visible. Being in the household also means I never get my own home teachers.
Rather than 'regroup with parents' being an option for adults, why not have 'send to parents' ward' be an option instead?
To add further to the matter, I've had a younger, married sibling and maybe also a divorced sibling with children living in the same house as my mother, too, at the same time, and they were put under their own household(s), and got their own home teachers. So, we can't say they're not giving me my own household in order to protect the privacy of my mother's address (because I'm pretty sure they could set their own privacy).
Anyway, I get the impression some people in the ward think I'm a lot younger than I am, largely because of this household thing in the directory.
To further compound the problem, I can't even see my own address in the online directory to verify whether it's correct or incorrect. I'm guessing it's incorrect since the online donation statements have my old address from before I moved home! That means the official tax statements, which list my old address, are problematic (since I lived in a different state before, and the IRS might give me issues if they saw that I didn't pay taxes in the other state that the tax statement says I lived in). I just learned this, since we got the announcement that we can make Church donations online, now (and I checked it out). However, I thought that at tithing settlement they showed my current address and had me verify it, several times, since then (I would have noticed my old address; I'm pretty thorough). So, it's possibly a bug in the donation statements or something. So, I'll have to contact my clerk and ask about it. Anyway, if I've been mailed anything at that old address, I've never received it.
Another issue is the psychological impact of having adults grouped in the same household as their parents (especially when not all adults, let alone adults in the household, are grouped like that). It doesn't help one towards independence to do that, and it makes it seem like people don't think you're significant (whether or not they do, unless they say otherwise and you can tell they mean it).
In a society like ours, problems like this will undoubtedly continue to happen unless the system is automated, because not everyone has time to care about it, and if they do, they might not be considering all the facts (or even have them).
Automating it will not only help individuals have the things they need, but it will give bishops and clerks (as well as people using the directory) one less thing to worry about.
mark_h_dewey wrote:Rather than 'regroup with parents' being an option for adults, why not have 'send to parents' ward' be an option instead?
I believe this is a good suggestion, but I would not go so far as to automate the removal from household process at a certain age. There are valid reasons for a person to remain in a household even when they turn 18.
However, if I were you, I would immediately see my clerk and get my record moved out and set up as its own head of household. If the clerk gives you any grief, speak with your bishop. I suspect, in your case at least, that they just haven't thought it through and know your desires.
mark_h_dewey wrote:I can't list my address (so, no one can find me through the directory, even though I want them to). Since my Mother has a different last name than I do, that means people will have difficulty finding my phone number and email address, even though they're visible. Being in the household also means I never get my own home teachers.
While you have some valid issues with the directory, I'd talk to the bishop about having you moved to your own household.
mark_h_dewey wrote:To further compound the problem, I can't even see my own address in the online directory to verify whether it's correct or incorrect. I'm guessing it's incorrect since the online donation statements have my old address from before I moved home!
That sounds like a different problem. The address is not attached to the member, but to the household. At this point I suspect that your records haven't moved back home. Perhaps you have a duplicate membership record. I'd work with the ward membership clerk to check on that.
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As a YSA who returned to the family ward and was grouped with my parents for a period of time, I was incredibly frustrated. Many communications are sent to the head of household and my parents didn't always pass the information along because they thought that as an adult, the relief society/bishopric would communicate directly with me. Many of the adults in the ward treated me nostalgically as still a YW even though I had graduated years earlier and had served a mission. Once my record was separated from my parents, I was more likely to be treated as an adult by members of the Ward rather than as a glorified youth.
Remember that many YSA's that are living at home maybe doing so due to economic difficulties, but are trying to seperate themselves and want to be treated as an adult. Sometimes the recognition of being their own head of household is the morale boost that they are looking for.
I have a 14 year old that is moving from his parents who adopted him back to his birth mothers home. His birth mother is not a member. In transferring his records does his adoptive father still show up as head of household?
