Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

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russellhltn
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby russellhltn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:48 am

lajackson wrote:If the former bishop has moved some distance away, perhaps after the members sign their testimony the new bishop might be willing to call the old bishop to satisfy his concerns with a direct conversation between the two bishops on the subject.


Much like HB1: 3.3.3 under "Members Who Have Not Lived in the Same Ward for at Least One Year". If it's good enough for a temple recommend, it should be good enough for vouching for the witness.
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eblood66
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby eblood66 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:23 am

krk22 wrote:His concern is that the ordinance was performed under another Bishop's / Ward's jurisdiction and so evidence from that Bishop / Ward is required to validate the ordinance in order to update the membership record. He compared it to him having to "validate worthiness" (his words) of an individual from another ward who is visiting to perform an ordinance in our ward.

I guess I can understand that he's concerned about overstepping his personal stewardship. But you might point out that the handbook does explicitly say under what circumstances a bishop much verify the worthiness of someone performing an ordinance out of their ward (i.e. when acting as voice) and how they should do it (by temple recommend or a recommend to perform an ordinance). On the other hand, the handbook does not say anything about verifying the ordinance with the presiding authority in order to validate it. The presiding authority may not even be available anymore due to death.

Personally, if the bishop where the ordinance was performed is no longer the bishop I'm not sure his testimony means anything more than anyone else's who was there. He no longer has those keys. But if he is still the bishop then he has the keys and authority to print and sign a Baptismal Certificate which would be sufficient evidence for the new ward to record the baptism. I see the two witnesses route as something to handle the situation when the presiding authority is no longer in his position for whatever reason.

krk22
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:36 am

eblood66 wrote:The presiding authority may not even be available anymore due to death.


Just to clarify, my Bishop is NOT suggesting we contact the presiding authority at the time of the ordinance, just the current Bishop of the ward where the ordinance was performed because it was under that ward's jurisdiction that the ordinance took place.

eblood66
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby eblood66 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:48 pm

krk22 wrote:
eblood66 wrote:The presiding authority may not even be available anymore due to death.


Just to clarify, my Bishop is NOT suggesting we contact the presiding authority at the time of the ordinance, just the current Bishop of the ward where the ordinance was performed because it was under that ward's jurisdiction that the ordinance took place.

Interesting. If it isn't the same bishop as when the ordinance was performed then there is no reason to think they have any greater knowledge of the ordinance than the parents do. If it's just a matter of whether the parents are trustworthy (assuming they haven't been in your ward long) then I agree with russellhltn, a call to the former bishop should be sufficient, just as it is for a temple recommend.

If your bishop doesn't see it that way then I don't know how you could convince him otherwise since I can't see any support for his position in the handbook. The analogy to someone performing an ordinance outside their ward doesn't really apply. That's a matter of judging someone's worthiness. Only the bishop of the ward where they reside is authorized to do that. In this case the only judgement is whether the witnesses are reliable and that responsibility falls to your bishop since they are now in your ward.

I guess I would tell him (respectfully) that his interpretation seems at odds with how others interpret that section and ask if he would discuss it with the stake president (which is what the handbook says to do when there are questions). If the stake president agrees with him then you just have to figure some way around it (which may mean doing the baptism over).

Gary_Miller
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby Gary_Miller » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:17 pm

I think I would take myself completely out of the picture and let the Bishop handle the whole affair his way. He can be the one to get the witness statement and to contact the other wards Bishop. Once has has done this and is satisfied he can give me the paper work and authorization to proceed. Then and only then would I get involved.

While I'm a strong advocate of taking all the administrative tasks off of the Bishop as much as possible what is currently happening is unreasonable, so is an incident where the Bishop can handle the situation as a whole.

krk22
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:03 pm

Gary_Miller wrote:While I'm a strong advocate of taking all the administrative tasks off of the Bishop as much as possible what is currently happening is unreasonable, so is an incident where the Bishop can handle the situation as a whole.


Exactly my thoughts. If he wants to do it his way, fair enough. Let me know when you have the paperwork ready for me. After all, it is the responsibility of the Bishop or one of his counselors to hand the clerk the requisite paperwork for it to be inputted into MLS. It is not the clerk's responsibility to track all the happenings of the ward and track down all that information.

Again, thanks for all the input everyone. It has been most helpful.

russellhltn
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby russellhltn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:18 pm

krk22 wrote:
Gary_Miller wrote:While I'm a strong advocate of taking all the administrative tasks off of the Bishop as much as possible what is currently happening is unreasonable, so is an incident where the Bishop can handle the situation as a whole.


Exactly my thoughts. If he wants to do it his way, fair enough. Let me know when you have the paperwork ready for me.


Yup. It shouldn't fall to the clerk to explain this touchy situation to the parents. Let the bishop handle it and then he can do it his way.
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