No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

Discuss questions around local unit policies for budgeting, reconciling, etc. This forum should not contain specific financial or membership information.
Gary_Miller
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#11

Post by Gary_Miller »

NoahVail wrote:
lajackson wrote:What you have described almost cries out for a careful reading of the Handbook, and a review of the budgeting process.
Everyone's read the handbook.
I've discussed the fundraising sections with every new Bishopric and YM leader and have for years.

This year, our YM leadership claims the different fundraising activities are part of a single fundraiser. I thought that was a novel approach to ignoring the guidelines.

I suspect our Bishopric counselor over YM agrees with me (1st time ever!)
The new Scoutmaster might also.

But our Bishop authorized the fundraising and seems to support it.
I believe he wants to fix other long-broken YM stuff, so maybe he'll come around.
Maybe everyone should go back and read for understanding.

13.2.8 Funding for Activities

.........................If funds from participants are not sufficient,
the bishop may authorize one group fund-raising
activity
annually that complies with the guidelines
in 13.6.8

13.6.8 Fund-Raising Activities

Fund-raising activities are not usually approved
because expenses for stake and ward
activities are paid with budget funds. As an exception,
a stake president or bishop may authorize
one group fund-raising activity each year.
Such an activity may be held to raise funds for
the following purposes only:

It clearly states ONE fund raiser per group per year. When we discussed this in our ward we to determined that each YW Class and each YM Scouting Unit could each do their own fund-raiser. Since they are considered separate groups. However if they did a fund-raise as a combined YW or YM organization then they would be considered a group and could only do one fund-raiser.
Gary_Miller
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#12

Post by Gary_Miller »

Figuring out funding for Scout Camps deciding how they will be funded is not a hard thing to do in advance.

All you need to do is use the local scout council camp fees as the base figure.

Using the camp cost times the number of young men will give you a good estimate of what it will cost the unit to attend summer camps.

Camp Cost X YM = Total Estimate

Using these figures along with the guidelines in the Hand Book a unit should be able to make a decision in September on how camps for the following year will be funded.
NoahVail
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#13

Post by NoahVail »

Gary_Miller wrote:Maybe everyone should go back and read for understanding.
If funds from participants are not sufficient, the bishop may authorize one group fund-raising activity annually that complies with the guidelines in 13.6.8

13.6.8 Fund-Raising Activities

Fund-raising activities are not usually approved because expenses for stake and ward activities are paid with budget funds. As an exception, a stake president or bishop may authorize one group fund-raising activity each year.

It clearly states ONE fund raiser per group per year. When we discussed this in our ward we to determined that each YW Class and each YM Scouting Unit could each do their own fund-raiser. Since they are considered separate groups. However if they did a fund-raise as a combined YW or YM organization then they would be considered a group and could only do one fund-raiser.
One challenge is that our current YM leadership is redefining reality by saying 2=1.
There's no push-back because most of our parents are past youth leaders and they really, really, really, really want to fundraise.

My experience:
Discussing guidelines - when my fellow members mind is set - needs to be done carefully, else I risk the 'c word' (contention) getting brought out in response.

Even so, your points are dead on. I made the same points clearly (and positively) to our Bishop, back when he was called to YM President.
I soon made them again to the 1st Counselor back when he was YM President.

So why then is our Bishop supporting multiple fundraisers? I don't really know.
We were only given 3 weeks to get the money in. Maybe he feels we're backed into a corner and doesn't see an alternative.
Gary_Miller
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#14

Post by Gary_Miller »

NoahVail wrote:My experience:
Discussing guidelines - when my fellow members mind is set - needs to be done carefully, else I risk the 'c word' (contention) getting brought out in response.

Even so, your points are dead on. I made the same points clearly (and positively) to our Bishop, back when he was called to YM President.
I soon made them again to the 1st Counselor back when he was YM President.

So why then is our Bishop supporting multiple fundraisers? I don't really know.
We were only given 3 weeks to get the money in. Maybe he feels we're backed into a corner and doesn't see an alternative.
I have found that the only thing you can do as a clerk is point the leaders to the guidelines, give your interpretation, and then let them decide what to do from there. If they are wrong they are the ones who will have to answer for their decision.

The one thing I do have control over is how its put in the computer. I create a separate AMFA- subcategory for each fund-riser, so at least there is an audit trail.
allenjpl
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#15

Post by allenjpl »

NoahVail wrote:Trying again - Some background first (unsure what's relevant):
I've never been Financial Clerk.

I've 5 sons and have spent 15 years in BSA leadership including 4 as a Scoutmaster and 4 as a Unit Commissioner over LDS units.
Might I ask what your current calling is?
This year's scout camp was planned by the Stake and intro'd to us in Jan. We were given about 3 weeks turn to in 1st payment and secure the YM's spot, the last payment to follow a month later.
This isn't typical behavior for our Stake Presidency.
You have my very deepest sympathies for having to deal with this. We had a similar experience last year, where the YM attended an LDS encampment at a local scout camp. Although the camp was not where the YM had intended to go, and it wasn't required that the YM attend, it was Strongly Encouraged. They went to the stake encampment.
But our Bishop authorized the fundraising and seems to support it.
I believe he wants to fix other long-broken YM stuff, so maybe he'll come around.
I suspect that the fundraising is a direct result of the compressed timeframe given to you by the stake. Although the participants can be asked to pay for some or all of the cost of the activity, when you only have a few weeks to provide what can be several hundred dollars, it makes it difficult for the YM/YW to come up with it. What typically happens is their parents pay for it, but given the time crunch, even the parents might be hard-pressed to pull out that much.
I've long been asking that the YM program be scheduled a year in advance. I know how to do that and am willing to help.
Until 6 months ago, most YM leadership simply refused, saying that a calendar wasn't necessary.
Again, you have my sympathies. A calendar is an essential part of any program, especially one where activities are intended to be planned and carried out by youth. My experience is that a lack of support tends to result in a program that is adult-led, which is the opposite of the program as written.

It sounds like you've made your feelings known, and at this point, the decision has been made. If you're a clerk, there's not much left to do at this point except make sure the records are as clear as possible. I agree with Gary_Miller that separate Other:AMFA accounts might be wise. In that way, expenses associated with a particular fundraiser are paid for from that fundraiser, and the ward can see which ones are effective, and which ones are not. I would treat any funds earned by the youth through the employment rate sheet as their own, not as part of a fundraiser (meaning, if the donations + fundraising is insufficient to pay for the full activity, and your ward does not participate, they get those funds back.) A spreadsheet would be extremely useful to you in that respect. I've done one in the past where whenever a donation was earmarked for a youth's camp, I record the donor, the youth, the date of the donation, and the amount. It makes it easier to double-check against the MLS accounts, and also makes it easier to create a list of Subtotals for each youth so you can tell who has paid in full. With 3 weeks, I expect you'll be getting a bunch of contributions very quickly, so you've got to be ready and organized when they come pouring in.
NoahVail
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#16

Post by NoahVail »

allenjpl wrote:Might I ask what your current calling is?
My last Bishop released me 3 years ago from my YM callings and wouldn't extend another.
My new Bishop extended a calling as Sunday School Counselor to me a few months ago.

After 15 years, I believe I have gained an understanding of how the Church expects YM and Scouting to be organized. I'm not sure anyone else agrees with that, though.
allenjpl wrote:We had a similar experience last year, where the YM attended an LDS encampment at a local scout camp. Although the camp was not where the YM had intended to go, and it wasn't required that the YM attend, it was Strongly Encouraged. They went to the stake encampment.
Most everyone is OK with camp selection - except for my own son. LDS Scouts picked up a really bad reputation, at least in the South East. He's afraid of being mistreated.

It's been 4 years since our last all-LDS camp. Our Stake Presidency honesty spoke about the behavior issues a couple of years back. That was a pretty big change and maybe it indicates things will be better this year.
allenjpl wrote:It sounds like you've made your feelings known, and at this point, the decision has been made. If you're a clerk, there's not much left to do at this point except make sure the records are as clear as possible.
I've never held a financial clerk calling. I'm a father of 5 boys w/ lots of Scout experience (YM exp too).

I've spent years trying to help get our YM/Scout program to operate as instructed and never really made any headway. You can't imagine how much I wish my leadership would shown even the smallest bit of trust in me.

It's not meant to be though. I've always found that difficult to accept.
Gary_Miller
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#17

Post by Gary_Miller »

NoahVail, I feel your pain your last post sounds just like my experience. With over 27 years experience in Scouting I can't seem to get the current leadership in my ward to see the light. Things do seem to be changing though, just not fast enough for me.

However, I love my calling as a clerk and hope to stay here a long time. I still serve the YM at the district level trying to help leaders building better programs.
ggllbb
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#18

Post by ggllbb »

NoahVail wrote:I've spent years trying to help get our YM/Scout program to operate as instructed and never really made any headway.
Gary_Miller wrote:I feel your pain your last post sounds just like my experience. With over 27 years experience in Scouting I can't seem to get the current leadership in my ward to see the light. Things do seem to be changing though, just not fast enough for me.
As you all know, it is difficult to run a good scouting program. If the leaders didn't have a good scouting experience as a boy or a leader, it gets even harder, since it is hard to see the value per work/cost.

In my many years in scouting, I have seen it (scouting) absolutely change boys lives. I have seen young men choose to serve a mission because of their experience in scouting.

In my tiny/isolated branch, it is very difficult to have a working scouting program. Since I have been here, I haven't seen it work yet, but I have not given up. It takes patience and perseverance. I know it can work, because years ago, I served as scoutmaster in a ward with one boy (in Utah even). It was hard, but I/we made it work.
Gary_Miller wrote:I love my calling as a clerk and hope to stay here a long time.
Don't worry, if you do a good job there are only three ways to get released from a clerk calling:
1) Called to Bishopric (my case).
2) Move, die or go inactive.
3) Do something really wrong.
Gary_Miller
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#19

Post by Gary_Miller »

ggllbb wrote:As you all know, it is difficult to run a good scouting program. If the leaders didn't have a good scouting experience as a boy or a leader, it gets even harder, since it is hard to see the value per work/cost.
Its been my experience that leaders make it hard on themselves. The do this by not getting trained, not reading the handbooks (church and BSA), not attending monthly round tables, not holding PLC meetings, and most important not praying to have the spirit of scouting.
ggllbb wrote:In my many years in scouting, I have seen it (scouting) absolutely change boys lives. I have seen young men choose to serve a mission because of their experience in scouting.
I think all scout leaders who have did their best to run the program according to the guidelines have see this.
ggllbb wrote:In my tiny/isolated branch, it is very difficult to have a working scouting program. Since I have been here, I haven't seen it work yet, but I have not given up. It takes patience and perseverance. I know it can work, because years ago, I served as scoutmaster in a ward with one boy (in Utah even). It was hard, but I/we made it work.
Small units are difficult to say the least, however having a good program is passable if your leaders are willing to magnify their calling, no matter how many boys you have.
ggllbb wrote:
Gary_Miller wrote:I love my calling as a clerk and hope to stay here a long time.
Don't worry, if you do a good job there are only three ways to get released from a clerk calling:
1) Called to Bishopric (my case).
2) Move, die or go inactive.
3) Do something really wrong.
Moving is what happened to me last time. I went to Korea for a year on military duty when I returned (back to the same ward) I had the best calling in the church (nursery) for six month, the bishop said don't get comfortable it not going to be permanent. Nest thing I knew I was put in a HP Group Leader, had to move (retired) to get released from that.

When I was called as the assistant clerk this time the bishop was surprised when I told him I had been a clerk before. I know I'm not getting released from clerking while this bishop is in. In the four and half years he has been bishop he has had 3 clerks and at least 2 finance clerks. One clerk was release because of a senior missionary, the others because they were not wiling to put in the time it takes to do the job.
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mlh78
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Re: No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

#20

Post by mlh78 »

This is how we do it in our stake:

Stake pays the cost of a stake YW camp (no ward camps); participants kick in $35 for food.

Stake reimburses wards for the cost of Scout Camp; participants kick in $35

Stake gives wards $35/head for high adventure; participants kick in another $35 for food; ward budget funds cover any excess.

We have not had a single fund raiser in 15 years. We have not had a single complaint, except that every once in a while a YM leader is chagrined that they don't have enough funds to do something over-the-top extravagant for high adventure.

I honestly cannot see how stakes/wards cannot run these programs on the allotted funds.
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