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Discuss questions around local unit policies for budgeting, reconciling, etc. This forum should not contain specific financial or membership information.
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aebrown
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#11

Post by aebrown »

jdlessley wrote:Are you advising that fund-raiser funds in excess needed for 2012 summer camps be rolled over to fund any or all of the funding for 2013 summer camps? If so, I do not see how this is even a loose interpretation of Handbook 2, 13.6.8. More specifically note the first numbered item of paragraph one which limits the funds raised from one group fund-raiser "[t]o help pay the cost of one annual camp or similar activity as outlined in 13.2.8."

I don't want to get into a debate on this topic, which has been discussed many times. But contrary to your absolute position on this, I can certainly read Section 13.6.8 and see how it could easily be interpreted to allow funds to be carried over. It simply mentions one annual fund raising activity and one annual camp. But it doesn't directly tie a particular year's fund raising activity to that year's camp. Just because we are talking about one fund raising activity per year and one camp per year doesn't mean that they have to take place in the same year.

I can certainly see how a stake president or bishop might interpret that section the way you propose, but I don't see how he must accept only that interpretation. Thus it is a matter for the local stake president and bishops to decide.
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jdlessley
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#12

Post by jdlessley »

aebrown wrote:Just because we are talking about one fund raising activity per year and one camp per year doesn't mean that they have to take place in the same year.
That is why I asked specifically about the situation. It was not clear whether the fund-raiser had paid for the 2012 camps and the excess of those funds no were going to rollover to pay for 2013 camps.
aebrown wrote:Thus it is a matter for the local stake president and bishops to decide.
That again is why I asked whether he, the stake clerk, had counseled with the stake president before giving those instructions to the ward clerks.
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aebrown
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#13

Post by aebrown »

jdlessley wrote:
aebrown wrote:Just because we are talking about one fund raising activity per year and one camp per year doesn't mean that they have to take place in the same year.
That is why I asked specifically about the situation. It was not clear whether the fund-raiser had paid for the 2012 camps and the excess of those funds no were going to rollover to pay for 2013 camps.

I don't think you are understanding what I said. I am saying that one entirely reasonable interpretation of the official policy in 13.6.8 is that it is completely acceptable to have a fund-raising activity in one year that provides the funds for an activity that takes place in another year.

You said "Are you advising that fund-raiser funds in excess needed for 2012 summer camps be rolled over to fund any or all of the funding for 2013 summer camps? If so, I do not see how this is even a loose interpretation of Handbook 2." That seems to flatly contradict what I just said. I'm not trying to say whether your position or the one I proposed is correct, but I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
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jdlessley
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#14

Post by jdlessley »

aebrown wrote:But contrary to your absolute position on this...
My position is not absolute. I am asking to understand how the handbook is being interpreted and by whom (stake clerk's without counsel with stake president or stake president's).
aebrown wrote:I don't think you are understanding what I said.
You are correct, I may not. I will concede after careful study of the words used in the handbook there is room for at least three possible interpretations. I have been influenced by the one same interpretation three stake presidents in three different geographic locations have made which is more conservative and restrictive.
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allenjpl
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#15

Post by allenjpl »

aebrown wrote:It simply mentions one annual fund raising activity and one annual camp. But it doesn't directly tie a particular year's fund raising activity to that year's camp. Just because we are talking about one fund raising activity per year and one camp per year doesn't mean that they have to take place in the same year.

I can certainly see how a stake president or bishop might interpret that section the way you propose, but I don't see how he must accept only that interpretation. Thus it is a matter for the local stake president and bishops to decide.
Although one year's fundraiser doesn't have to be for that same year's camp, doesn't the fundraiser still have to pegged for one annual camp? That is, a fundraiser can be targeted to pay for camp in 2012, 2013, or 2014, but not all three simultaneously? I think an issue arises when funds raised for camp in Year 1 get rolled over to pay for camp in Year 2.
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#16

Post by russellhltn »

It raises a question of what to do when a fundraiser to too successful.

However, in the case of funds coming from families, it seems to me that every effort should be made to refund the excess.
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aebrown
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#17

Post by aebrown »

allenjpl wrote:Although one year's fundraiser doesn't have to be for that same year's camp, doesn't the fundraiser still have to pegged for one annual camp? That is, a fundraiser can be targeted to pay for camp in 2012, 2013, or 2014, but not all three simultaneously? I think an issue arises when funds raised for camp in Year 1 get rolled over to pay for camp in Year 2.
I don't see that as the only possible interpretation. What is the meaning of "one annual camp"? Does it mean one camp per year, or only one camp which occurs annually? If you take it as meaning only one camp per year, then what does "one group fund-raising activity each year" mean? Does that mean one per organization, or only one per ward? If it means one per ward, then it can "help pay the cost of one annual camp" and thus if "one annual camp" means only one camp, then only one organization can benefit, and all other organizations can't use the fund raiser. If you take a hard line on the meaning of "one" in one context, then to be consistent, you have to take that same stance on the meaning of "one" everywhere.

Now I am fully aware that any of those points can be disagreed with (and I personally don't tend to agree with them all), but my overall point is that some people are drawing conclusions that are not necessarily supported by the totality of the text of Handbook 2. Thus I keep coming back to the stake president and bishop carefully and prayerfully reading the policy and then deciding what it means for their area of responsibility.
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daveywest
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#18

Post by daveywest »

Lets not forget the Handbook advises that all activities should be paid for from budget funds, and in cases where budget funds are not sufficient for summer camp, youth and their families should be asked to pay the excess necessary.

Only when the family cannot pay, should we invoke the authorized fundraising activities.

I think the spirit of the guidelines in the handbook revolve around self-reliance and frugality. At times, the geographic makeup of some wards in my stake has allowed units to raise funds well in excess of their need. Those units have been counseled to reduce their fundraising efforts and bring their program back in line with guidelines set forth by local and world leaders.
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aebrown
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#19

Post by aebrown »

daveywest wrote:Lets not forget the Handbook advises that all activities should be paid for from budget funds, and in cases where budget funds are not sufficient for summer camp, youth and their families should be asked to pay the excess necessary.

Only when the family cannot pay, should we invoke the authorized fundraising.
Good points, except with one adjustment: the handbook never mentions an option for families to pay. It's paid by budget funds, participants, and then fund raising.
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johnshaw
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#20

Post by johnshaw »

This is where I see the greatest abuse <-- My personal opinion. I question on a regular basis a budget that 'relies' on the fact that we can do fundraisers. I believe that fundraisers have generally become a way to increase the amount of money we can use in our budget for things not related to the youth. I think it can be a slippery slope, but, I advise, those with the Keys make the decisions.
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