Broadcasts in Windows Media only?

Discuss ideas and suggestions around the Church website.
rmrichesjr
Community Moderators
Posts: 3827
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:32 am
Location: Dundee, Oregon, USA

#21

Post by rmrichesjr »

There are open source audio programs that can handle a large number of formats, including older formats. For example, the "sox" audio package can even convert between various formats. A quick check on a major search engine appears to show sox and/or other packages may be able to read .mms format. If you would like to post or send me an example URL, I'll try to find something that can read it.
JamesAnderson
Senior Member
Posts: 773
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:03 pm

#22

Post by JamesAnderson »

Here is one, there are a couple of others that have similar files.

'Six B's' fireside.
mms://stream.lds.org/sf/2002/nov/12/english16.asf

Another one that is in .wma format but apparently not prepared to download.

175th Anniversary...Aaronic Priesthood.
mms://stream.lds.org/pra/2004/May/16/pra2004may16english16.wma
rmrichesjr
Community Moderators
Posts: 3827
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:32 am
Location: Dundee, Oregon, USA

#23

Post by rmrichesjr »

JamesAnderson wrote:Here is one, there are a couple of others that have similar files.

'Six B's' fireside.
mms://stream.lds.org/sf/2002/nov/12/english16.asf

Another one that is in .wma format but apparently not prepared to download.

175th Anniversary...Aaronic Priesthood.
mms://stream.lds.org/pra/2004/May/16/pra2004may16english16.wma
Those are too easy.

First, a bit of analysis of the URLs. The "mms:" at the beginning of the URL is the protocol, not the type of file. FTP, HTTP, SMTP, NTP, and NNTP are other protocols. FTP and HTTP can each be used to transfer a huge range of types of files. One peculiarity of the MMS protocol is it is apparently intended for real-time playing, not downloading. However, there are ways to work around that minor difficulty.

The open source mplayer program (the first program I tried) handled both URLs just fine. With the right command-line options (which I don't remember off the top of my head), mplayer can save the decoded audio to disk as a .wav file. There's a GUI front end for mplayer, called gmplayer. If the mplayer program won't work on your operating system, you could try booting a Live-CD Linux that has mplayer, save the .wav file to disk or thumb drive, then use that file with your OS.

Please inform if you need additional help listening to those files.
Valden-p40
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:57 am
Location: USA

The OGG format is an option if we really wanted it.

#24

Post by Valden-p40 »

Like other posters, I use Linux at home. I also use Linux at the office. I would like to add my comments regarding the Church using the ogm/ogg formats.

If the church sent out media streams in the ogm and/or ogg formats, then that would allow users of Windows, Mac, Solaris, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Linux, BeOS, OS/2, etc. to view and/or listen to conference. (Based on http://www.vorbis.com/software/) Streaming in the ogg format is a reality now and not merely a theoretical possibility. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora#Streaming) This can be used with Windows' media player. (See http://www.vorbis.com/setup_windows/)

"Although Ogg hasn't reached anywhere near the ubiquity of the MPEG standards (e.g.: MP3 / MP4), as of 2006, it is commonly used to encode free content (such as free music, multimedia on Wikimedia projects and Creative Commons files) and has started to be supported by a significant minority of digital audio players. Also supporting the Ogg format have been many popular video game engines, including Doom 3, Unreal Tournament 2004, Halo: Combat Evolved, Mafia: The City of Lost Heaven, Myst IV: Revelation, Stepmania, Serious Sam: The Second Encounter, Lineage 2, Vendetta Online, Battlefield 2 and the Grand Theft Auto engines. The more popular Vorbis codec has built-in support on many software players, and extensions are available for nearly all the rest. Other codecs are less well supported, although extensions are often available." (Quote taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg)

I understand in the past that disk space and cost were issues with streaming conference in both windows media and Real Audio formats. (Based on previous personal communications with the Church)

Almost universally speaking, the ogm and ogg formats take less space and bandwidth for better quality than the currently-used MP3 formats. (Based on http://vorbis.com/faq/#_fan and http://vorbis.com/faq/#_quality)

If the church is required to pay royalties because they are currently distributing the MP3 format, then it would also free up dollars for the church. (Based on http://vorbis.com/faq/#flic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3 and http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html)

Other posters (mzundel for example) commented on using mplayer to allow his FC6 Linux computer to play files. These 10 steps are possibly outside the reach of most people who want to be able to just view/list to Conference/. The root problem is that this solution--mplayer--is not illegal in Hungary where it is distributed. However, in the USA because of the combination of the DMCA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Mi ... yright_Act) as well as patents, it IS illegal (See "Until the key patents expire, unlicensed encoders and players could be infringing in countries where the patents are valid. . . . the majority of home users not knowing or not caring about the patents' controversy and often not considering such legal issues . . ." at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3 as well as many other web sites) to use the software in the USA. If we claim to obey, honor, and sustain the law, then this is not the answer.

If the church is building its own player, then why build one that ONLY works for your Windows users and which is required to be installed by the user? If the user is required to install something, then why not, then, allow this player to play the ogm and ogg streams--royalty free? Likewise, why not, then, ask the users to install the Windows media player plugin to play the ogm and ogg streams?

The ogm and ogg formats have more capabilities (such as chapters (i.e. Individual speakers) and metadata (i.e. Title of talks)) for the Church to take advantage of as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... er_formats

tomw and others: When you say in your above post "We are constantly looking at various video formats to broadcast the conference in" then considering the above fundamental common denominators, I must admit I wonder if their is an honest desire to look into this format. The benefits to using the ogg/ogm format should be more seriously considered. More details about this ogg/ogm format can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Media as well as many other sources.
rmrichesjr
Community Moderators
Posts: 3827
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:32 am
Location: Dundee, Oregon, USA

#25

Post by rmrichesjr »

Valden, I like your thoughts about using ogg. You do a good job of identifying some significant advantages for both the Church and individuals.

Regarding the MP3 patents, I can't quote chapter and verse, but I have read in a few places that the owners of the patents have stated they won't enforce the patents against users of players or decoders.

If I understand correctly, Firefox 3.5 supports ogg/vorbis and ogg/theora audio and video natively, meaning we won't even have to hassle with installing the Flash plugin for that content.
Valden-p40
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:57 am
Location: USA

#26

Post by Valden-p40 »

Yes, Mozilla 3.5 and above supports ogg/vorbis and ogg/theora audio and video natively. The Windows media player does not support this natively but needs only one plugin.

This is how things are currently setup.
* For users to watch streaming General Conference in video, the user needs three programs: Windows media player, MoveMediaPlayer, and Adobe Flash.
* For users to listen to streaming General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Windows media player.
* For users to watch archived General Conference in video, the user needs one or two programs: Windows media player and to get the higher-quality an MP4 plugin is needed.
* For users to listen to archived General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Windows media player.

Contrast the current setup to the OGG proposal.
* For users to watch streaming General Conference in video, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
* For users to listen to streaming General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
* For users to watch archived General Conference in video, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
* For users to listen to archived General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Mozilla.

Instead the Church advertises on the main conference broadcast page its limits by saying "Please note that the Move plug-in will work on IE6, IE7, Firefox (Mac and PC), and Safari (on Mac) browsers with a broadband Internet connection. Currently the Safari web browser in Mac OS X Snow Leopard is only supported in 32 bit mode." The OGG solution would work with a wider audience for users having Windows, Mac, Solaris, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Linux, BeOS, OS/2, etc. with whatever player the user wants to use on each of these operating systems.

From a maintenance standpoint, the Church spends money and time configuring equipment and uses more bandwidth and disk space for mp3, wmv, mp4, and asf formats. It could use the OGG solution for streaming and archiving taking up less bandwidth and disk space while obtaining a higher-quality video and audio. The "How to Listen" web page instructions could also be simplified for the users to simply suggest using Mozilla version 3.5 or higher--not additions stuff required!

Other professionals are currently streaming and archiving the OGG format as can be seen at http://dir.xiph.org and many other places.

If you consider these thoughts with my other comments on February 3rd, does the OGG format make more sense? Would this not benefit all involved--especially the intended audience?

I have to admit, I don't understand the current position. Help me understand your position.

P.S. I am in no way affiliated with the OGG format groups. I just see the clear advantage of using the OGG format.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 34417
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

#27

Post by russellhltn »

Valden wrote:This is how things are currently setup.
* For users to watch streaming General Conference in video, the user needs three programs: Windows media player, MoveMediaPlayer, and Adobe Flash.
* For users to listen to streaming General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Windows media player.
* For users to watch archived General Conference in video, the user needs one or two programs: Windows media player and to get the higher-quality an MP4 plugin is needed.
* For users to listen to archived General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Windows media player.


Contrast the current setup to the OGG proposal.
* For users to watch streaming General Conference in video, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
* For users to listen to streaming General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
* For users to watch archived General Conference in video, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
* For users to listen to archived General Conference in audio, the user needs one program: Mozilla.
As a Windows user, I'd only need to add MoveMediaPlayer and MP4 plugin if those features are desired. I already have WMP and Flash.

To use OGG, I'd have to install another browser. This carries far more "political" issues as well as a larger footprint.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
Valden-p40
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:57 am
Location: USA

For political reasons?

#28

Post by Valden-p40 »

If I understand you, you mention two concerns: Larger footprint and politics.

It is true that users have to install software in either case. The difference is a mere three megabytes--that which would fit on two old floppy diskettes.
1) Firefox = 7.70 Meg download
2a) Adobe Flash player = 3.76 Meg download
2b) MoviePlayer = 1.00 Med download
With hard drive space today, I don't think a "larger footprint" is the reason--especially if you add the size of the MP4 plugin option under Windows.

So, does that leave politics? If so, then what would one need to do to overcome this obstacle? :rolleyes:

Anyone else: Are their any other reasons?
russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 34417
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

#29

Post by russellhltn »

Valden wrote:So, does that leave politics? If so, then what would one need to do to overcome this obstacle? :rolleyes:
Convincing people like me that I have to download a specific browser to get LDS content. Installing a plug-in is one thing, but browser choice tends to invoke strong personal preferences.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
lajackson
Community Moderators
Posts: 11460
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: US

#30

Post by lajackson »

I do not believe that there will ever be a consensus on which browser is "the" browser to use, so I think the Church ought to make their video media available on as many browsers as reasonable. Reasonable may mean the most popular two or three browsers, or it may mean many more.

I am often in situations where I have no control over the browser I am required to use, yet I still have the opportunity to watch video media during my down time.

I would be very disappointed if the Church were to say, for example, that they will feed video that only could be viewed in a Mozilla browser, when I had to use IE, through no fault of my own, and then could not view the video.
Post Reply

Return to “Main Church Website”