VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Conversations around originating a webcast for conference, including cameras and mixers.
jasondivy
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:21 pm

VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby jasondivy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:42 pm

I'm really excited about the prospect of broadcasting stake conference to other buildings in the stake. We have a few towns in out stake, and it would be really nice to cut down on travel (especially for our older members). I'm guessing it would serve 30-40% of the stake at their local buildings. Stake leaders have been whispering about it for some time, and now this announcement will probably push us in that direction.

I am very concerned, however, with the proliferation of LDSAccess devices in our building (phones, tablets, laptops, etc). It would not take much to overwhelm our Internet connection. I can imagine someone clueless streaming video to their smartphone from the mother's lounge while they listen to the meeting. The VidiU device should be considered mission critical, high priority on the network (above and beyond all other network devices here locally). Similar priority should be given at the receiving sites. Why haven't we received word on setting up QOS (etc) for webcasting?

In short, naive members should not even be capable of DDOSing our upload. How can we address this? Is there anything I can do myself? Am I overlooking something?

russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 20734
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby russellhltn » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:27 pm

jasondivy wrote:Am I overlooking something?

Yes. TM (Technology Manager) has the ability to shut off all the wireless in the building. The standing advice is that all wireless is to be disabled for the webcast. Obviously the webcast equipment is to be hardwired, but that should be done anyway.
Have you searched the Wiki?
Try using a Google search by adding "site:tech.lds.org/wiki" to the search criteria.

jasondivy
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby jasondivy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:39 pm

No offense, but that sounds pretty dumb. I would be very surprised if the 881 wasn't fully capable of QOS, or some other sort of traffic shaping. It's not an inexpensive piece of equipment. The hardware is already in place, it just needs to be properly configured.

For that matter I could even put a DD-WRT box between the ISP and the 881. I could hang the VidiU off the Cheap-o router and set up QOS on my own. (assuming the stream does not validate somehow by going through the VPN; unlikely) But I'd rather not. I'd rather do things by the book if I can.

Everyone is going to be expecting to have Internet access for their phones, not the least of which will be the high council. Take that away from them, and we'll hear no end of grumbling and "why not"s I'd rather not have to tell them that it's technically possible, but out of our hands.

russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 20734
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby russellhltn » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:06 pm

So how does QOS work? And can it work in this situation? Keep in mind the bottleneck is the ISP link. If two streams of video are coming down, how can QOS at the chapel decide what's prioritized for the ISP bottleneck? Wouldn't the QOS have to be set at the ISP's routers to prioritize which packets get sent in the first place?
Have you searched the Wiki?

Try using a Google search by adding "site:tech.lds.org/wiki" to the search criteria.

eblood66
Senior Member
Posts: 2025
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:17 am
Location: Cumming, GA, USA

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby eblood66 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:07 pm

jasondivy wrote:No offense, but that sounds pretty dumb. I would be very surprised if the 881 wasn't fully capable of QOS, or some other sort of traffic shaping. It's not an inexpensive piece of equipment. The hardware is already in place, it just needs to be properly configured.

Whether or not is possible CHQ has not configured the 881's for that and there is no option for any local configuration. All configuration is handled by CHQ. I don't know why they haven't done that but I'd guess that either it hasn't been a high enough priority to do yet or they feel that supporting it for all units would be too much of a burden on LUS. There are far fewer possible technical problems with just shutting off wifi.

jasondivy wrote:For that matter I could even put a DD-WRT box between the ISP and the 881. I could hang the VidiU off the Cheap-o router and set up QOS on my own. (assuming the stream does not validate somehow by going through the VPN; unlikely) But I'd rather not. I'd rather do things by the book if I can.

I suppose you could do that (although bypassing the firewall is probably against policy). But another consideration is that the next person with your calling may not know how to do all that and LUS will not provide any help with it.

jasondivy wrote:Everyone is going to be expecting to have Internet access for their phones, not the least of which will be the high council. Take that away from them, and we'll hear no end of grumbling and "why not"s I'd rather not have to tell them that it's technically possible, but out of our hands.

Well don't tell them that. Just tell them that it is the only option endorsed and supported by the church. If they really need internet access they can use their cellular network.

jasondivy
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby jasondivy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:07 pm

Wouldn't the QOS have to be set at the ISP's routers to prioritize which packets get sent in the first place?


No, actually. All data is bundled up and sent through the VPN. I don't know what type of facility it goes to, but if any additional routers needed to be involved, the church already controls them.

In theory: Out-bound data is easy. Queue or drop anything that doesn't have priority. Inbound is harder, but still manageable. Remember, TCP behavior on a dropped packet is to assume that the route has been saturated, to back off on bandwidth, and resend. In this way, even download speeds can be managed. It would take either a deliberate DDOS or a state-less protocol (UDP, etc) to saturate the inbound line if the router employed selective packet dropping. (I'm not sure what method Cisco uses. They're bound to be at least that smart.)

People use DD-WRT (etc) at home with QOS all the time to limit download speeds of errant applications (or users) without having any control over their ISPs routers. This isn't out of the ordinary, it's just not something most home users ever encounter.

CHQ has not configured the 881's for that and there is no option for any local configuration


I've noticed.

There are far fewer possible technical problems with just shutting off wifi.


I beg to differ. It's a technical problem that exists today. I only found the recommendation to turn wifi off after starting this post. (I was actively hunting for the answer.) Most STS won't find it at all. I wonder how many stake conferences are going to have bizarre, intermittent problems before they discover that little nugget...

The biggest benefit of a centrally managed network is that you can fix each problem once, and push that one solution out to the entire network. It would make more sense to actually fix the issue once for ALL the 881 boxes out there in one fell swoop than it would to simply pray that every STS has patience to read every bit of text on the site. "Oh, I made a note in the documentation that it is someone else's problem. Job done."

Now if they're just busy fixing other issue, that would be different. Maybe they just haven't gotten around to this one yet. (I doubt it, but it is possible.)

But another consideration is that the next person with your calling may not know how to do all that...


Not a problem (but see below). (1) If I left it there, it would continue silently working without anyone knowing. I wouldn't, of course, but I could. (2) If I pulled it out after every use then the next guy is stuck with exactly the same problem. It doesn't create any new problems for him, it just unsolves one.

... and LUS will not provide any help with it.


This is a half-valid a concern. It isn't that it would be hard to do (or test), but if something else went wrong it could really confuse LUS and detract from solving the real problem (whatever that might be). As I said, I'd prefer to do this by the book. This is a big reason why.

Well don't tell them that.


I'm not going to lie, even by omission. If that's the route we go, then they deserve to know.

If they really need internet access they can use their cellular network.


Not everyone has a data plan, especially for laptops and tablets. Yes, people use those.

lajackson
Community Moderators
Posts: 6131
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:27 pm
Location: US

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby lajackson » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:14 pm

jasondivy wrote:Not everyone has a data plan, especially for laptops and tablets. Yes, people use those.

Do you mean to tell me that they might actually have to listen to the conference?

jasondivy
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby jasondivy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Do you mean to tell me that they might actually have to listen to the conference?


Who's to say that they're not?

There are any number of reasons why someone may want to be online during Stake Conference. (Some reasonable, others less so; I'm not judging.)

lajackson
Community Moderators
Posts: 6131
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:27 pm
Location: US

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby lajackson » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:31 pm

jasondivy wrote:There are any number of reasons why someone may want to be online during Stake Conference. (Some reasonable, others less so; I'm not judging.)

I agree that there are some valid reasons, and I'm not judging either. But, since we started streaming stake conferences several years ago, the standard (and first) procedure for a successful broadcast has always been to disable the WiFi. Because the Church does not choose to expend tithing funds on industrial strength bandwidth, what we have becomes a precious resource that we reserve solely for the broadcast if we wish to get the signal through to our outlying units.

russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 20734
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

Re: VidiU webcasting, but no QOS? Am I reading this right?

Postby russellhltn » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:31 pm

jasondivy wrote:All data is bundled up and sent through the VPN.

I don't think so. The VPN is only used for some data. The whole internet doesn't go through there. And the webcast solution is based on Azure. So it's not inside the VPN.

The other problem is that the church needs a configuration that works with all ISPs.

And you've already pointed out that UDP isn't very manageable. So bottom line, the best method to protect the video stream is to turn off general access.
Have you searched the Wiki?

Try using a Google search by adding "site:tech.lds.org/wiki" to the search criteria.


Return to “Webcasting”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest