Broken BIC

Discussions around using and interfacing with the Church MLS program.
buchleg-p40
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Broken BIC

Postby buchleg-p40 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:05 am

1.) If a parent leaves the church or is excommunicated does it remove the "Born in the Covenant" for the children?

2.) If a female member is sealed in theTemplethen gets a secular divorce. Remarries and has another child with the new husband who has not been to theTemple, would the child be considered Born in the Covenant because of the mother?

3.) Should I be asking these questions some other place

Thanks

techgy
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Postby techgy » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:31 am

buchleg wrote:1.) If a parent leaves the church or is excommunicated does it remove the "Born in the Covenant" for the children?

2.) If a female member is sealed in theTemplethen gets a secular divorce. Remarries and has another child with the new husband who has not been to theTemple, would the child be considered Born in the Covenant because of the mother?

3.) Should I be asking these questions some other place

Thanks


I believe that the best place to go to obtain answers to your questions would be your local Bishop or Stake President. Your questions would require access to material that isn't available on this forum. You might get a response from a Bishop or Stake Pres or someone who's been in those positions and is a member of this forum, but again, your best source would be your own Priesthood Leaders.

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mkmurray
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Postby mkmurray » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:37 am

Techgy wrote:I believe that the best place to go to obtain answers to your questions would be your local Bishop or Stake President. Your questions would require access to material that isn't available on this forum. You might get a response from a Bishop or Stake Pres or someone who's been in those positions and is a member of this forum, but again, your best source would be your own Priesthood Leaders.

If none of your local priesthood leaders have heard of nor dealt with this before, don't be afraid to suggest contacting Church Headquarters Membership Support to your local leaders for guidance from Salt Lake. Another option as opposed to a phone call would be to use the MLS Messaging System to ask your question to Church HQ.

russellhltn
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Postby russellhltn » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:46 pm

buchleg wrote:1.) If a parent leaves the church or is excommunicated does it remove the "Born in the Covenant" for the children?

2.) If a female member is sealed in theTemplethen gets a secular divorce. Remarries and has another child with the new husband who has not been to theTemple, would the child be considered Born in the Covenant because of the mother?

3.) Should I be asking these questions some other place

Thanks


I've been a long time since I've read the Church Handbook of Instructions, but I think the answers are 1) No, 2) Yes, 3) Yes. There are members here who currently have access who will no doubt weigh in.

This is an area that you're likely to get different answers. So I'd look for someone who is willing to look up the information. Note that this is a "legalistic" question and not something up to leaders discretion, so I hesitate to use local leaders as the final authority unless they are willing to study it. Clerk support at CHQ is a good resource, but I believe the ultimate accessible authority is the Church Handbook of Instructions - and even then it may require some interpretation.
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Try using a Google search by adding "site:tech.lds.org/wiki" to the search criteria.

jbh001
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Postby jbh001 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:09 pm

RussellHltn wrote:Clerk support at CHQ is a good resource, but I believe the ultimate accessible authority is the Church Handbook of Instructions - and even then it may require some interpretation.
My experience is that these matter almost always get referred to the stake president, if not the area seventy or even the First Presidency. Why go all the way to the top? Because each case is different, thus I doubt there will be anything in the CHI by way of guidance other than to bump it up to the ultimate authority: the First Presidency. And that is usually reserved for cases where the individuals involved are ready to go through the temple for their own ordinance work.

If it is simply a matter of satisfying curiosity, then the matter usually stops with the stake president. If it is a question of whether or not ordinance work needs to be done, First Presidency clearance might be required in some cases. That is a matter for the bishop to complete any paperwork required by the First Presidency, and due to the confidential nature of that paperwork, I have yet to see ward clerks included in that process.

russellhltn
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Postby russellhltn » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:31 pm

jbh001 wrote:If it is a question of whether or not ordinance work needs to be done, First Presidency clearance might be required in some cases.


Oh, now that makes things interesting. I thought we were talking about the BIC flag on a living members records and if they needed to be sealed to parents. Following that line:

1) I think the CHI makes it clear that once sealed, always sealed regardless of what happens to the parents afterwords. Including excommunication.

2) It becomes more of an academic question. Unless we add a few more facts, (such as the woman getting sealed to the second husband) there's nothing that can be done and we're just arguing about the BIC flag.

BUT, if everyone in question is deceased, that's a whole different ball game. The line of authority is no longer the Bishop, Stake President and CHI. It's the Family History Department and their policies. However, I still stand by my first answer.
Have you searched the Wiki?

Try using a Google search by adding "site:tech.lds.org/wiki" to the search criteria.

lajackson
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Postby lajackson » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:17 pm

RussellHltn wrote:I think the answers are 1) No, 2) Yes, 3) Yes.


Russell has given the correct answers.

A child born in the covenant never loses that status.

Children born to a sister who is sealed are born in the covenant unless the sealing is canceled (in which case there has usually been another sealing) or the sister is excommunicated.

The answer to the last question is yes because the First Presidency sometimes makes exceptions. Being prophets, seers, and revelators, they get to do that. The stake president is the communication channel when any of those issues are involved.

buchleg-p40
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Postby buchleg-p40 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:31 pm

Thanks for the reply's.......

SmithGW
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Broken BIC

Postby SmithGW » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:47 pm

buchleg asked:
1.) If a parent leaves the church or is excommunicated does it remove the "Born in the Covenant" for the children?

2.) If a female member is sealed in theTemplethen gets a secular divorce. Remarries and has another child with the new husband who has not been to theTemple, would the child be considered Born in the Covenant because of the mother?
We've been hitting all around the answer on this one. The Church Handbook of Instructions is quite clear on this. Being born in the covenant depends on the mother being sealed to a husband. If the child is born after that sealing, it is born in the covenant. If that child is born of that mother in another later marriage, it is born in the covenant as long as the mother has not been excommunicated or requested her name be removed from Church records or had her sealing canceled. If the mother is excommunicated or has her name removed or had her sealing canceled, any children born after that time are not born in the covenant. Your bishop or stake president can read this for you on page 86 of book 1 of the Church Handbook of Instructions.


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