MLS 2.9 Export Formats

Discussions around using and interfacing with the Church MLS program.
kennethjorgensen
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#11

Post by kennethjorgensen »

rmrichesjr wrote:The obvious solution to the switch from .csv format to vCard format for the two exports is to write a conversion program. It would seem to make sense for the first person to have such a program working to share it, or to make an open-source project out of it.

I was thinking exactly the same.
If indeed I knew the two formats I would write it and share the exe file.

This shouldnt be a problem for the people who maintain to write software to read them as reading a new formatted text based format is easy.
Those who it will cause problems for will be those who are end-users who use software that is no longer maintained or they might not know where to get update from or those who have just managed to write simple csv scripts etc.

For those reasons I see the point in writing a conversion program and I would if anyone is in need of it.

The fear of "dracunian control" and thousands of bishops affect is maybe a bit overstated.
I cant see anything "dracunian" about it as it was a basic change from one text based format to another. If that is what they wanted to do then you simply comment one line of code out and dont include the menu option in the next version.
RossEvans
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#12

Post by RossEvans »

dkjorgi wrote:This shouldnt be a problem for the people who maintain to write software to read them as reading a new formatted text based format is easy.
Those who it will cause problems for will be those who are end-users who use software that is no longer maintained or they might not know where to get update from or those who have just managed to write simple csv scripts etc. ...

For those reasons I see the point in writing a conversion program and I would if anyone is in need of it..

Yes, as a developer my first reaction will be to analyze (reverse-engineer in the absence of documentation) the new .vcf file and write something to convert it. An unknown question right now is whether the content of the new data elements is identical to that of the old .csv file.

However, the hapless end user who just wanted to load the .csv file into a spreadsheet with a double-click would now have to research some techie forum like this, find the conversion utility and run it each time -- all to restore functionality that MLS took away. Almost no one would bother; few would know how to try.
dkjorgi wrote: The fear of "dracunian control" and thousands of bishops affect is maybe a bit overstated.
I cant see anything "dracunian" about it as it was a basic change from one text based format to another.The fear of "dracunian control" and thousands of bishops affect is maybe a bit overstated.
I cant see anything "dracunian" about it as it was a basic change from one text based format to another.

You are apparently referring to my own remarks near the top of this thread. In doing so, like jbh001, you are fundamentally distorting what I said, which was the opposite: I said this was not draconian:
At least we know now that the intent is not to enforce some draconian new policy deliberately aimed at shutting down external helper apps.

My remark was an expression of relief that the earlier implication -- in the ambiguous release note at the top of this thread and DJC's ambigious comments in an earlier thread-- that all six .csv export files might be eliminated turned out to be wrong. Apparently, it is not the Church's intent as a matter of policy to block external added-value applications.

This is more likely the brainchild of some developer in a cubicle at CHQ, who finds vCard to be a cool technology. For its limited purpose, it is a cool technology, and a worthwhile enhancement. But it is no replacement for the generic properties of .csv files.
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#13

Post by RossEvans »

rmrichesjr wrote:The obvious solution to the switch from .csv format to vCard format for the two exports is to write a conversion program. It would seem to make sense for the first person to have such a program working to share it, or to make an open-source project out of it.

The most generalized workaround would be a vCard-to-CSV converter that would handle any implementation of the vCard standard. (BTW, which version of that standard is being used? V 2.1 seems to be common, but v 3.0 is newer.)

The full standard encompasses extensions of data types beginning with X- (I wonder if the Church has defined any of those for its particular implementation.) There areRFCspublished for the full standards, including a BNF grammar.

Writing a parser for the full generalized standard, which theoretically could translate any implementer's .vcf file into a .csv file no matter what the internal content, is a task that I do not choose to undertake. I would prefer a converter in general use where that wheel has been invented and tested.

There are some commercial products that purport to translate to/from a vCard format. Here is one, which I link to as an FYI without endorsement. Here is a link to a free converter. Just eyeballing its PHP code, I don't think it is intended to parse anything the vCard standard might throw at it, but does handle the common email contact fields the implementer was using. Obviously I do not recommend uploading your membership data to his website, but you might want to adapt his code.

For my own parochial purposes -- since I am basically in panicked fire-fighting mode, trying to find a way to fix my own scripts that are about to be broken -- I may focus first on the particular structure I can divine from the new MLS export file once I see it. That would be a much more limited objective, and probably could be accomplished by lexical parsing tools such as regular expressions.

However, I continue to harbor some hope that the damage done in the MLS beta might be undone before general release of 2.9, which would render all this conversion hassle unnecessary.
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Mikerowaved
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#14

Post by Mikerowaved »

boomerbubba wrote:Yes, as a developer my first reaction will be to analyze (reverse-engineer in the absence of documentation) the new .vcf file and write something to convert it. An unknown question right now is whether the content of the new data elements is identical to that of the old .csv file.

However, the hapless end user who just wanted to load the .csv file into a spreadsheet with a double-click would now have to research some techie forum like this, find the conversion utility and run it each time -- all to restore functionality that MLS took away. Almost no one would bother; few would know how to try.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps the lack of documentation and the fact that a person needs an Admin-level approval each and every time these "features" are invoked, might just suggest they were NEVER intended for hapless end users in the first place (OK, now I'm standing on a twig) or 3rd party developers.
boomerbubba wrote:This is more likely the brainchild of some developer in a cubicle at CHQ, who finds vCard to be a cool technology.
I'm sorry you're upset at the decision, but I will not allow you to insult the developers, managers, and project leaders working on MLS. The decision was made to change an undocumented feature. You are entitled to voice your concerns, which you have. I think it's time to move on.
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
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aebrown
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#15

Post by aebrown »

Mikerowaved wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps the lack of documentation and the fact that a person needs an Admin-level approval each and every time these "features" are invoked, might just suggest they were NEVER intended for hapless end users in the first place (OK, now I'm standing on a twig) or 3rd party developers.
...
The decision was made to change an undocumented feature.

Interesting speculation, but I completely disagree (based on my own speculation, of course :)). What on earth is the export for? It seems to me that following your logic, the export should never be used for any possible purpose.

The export is documented in an admittedly sketchy fashion, but the MLS help file says of the Export Dialog: "The first four selections on the list are comma-separated files (.csv) that may be loaded into a spreadsheet or any application that accepts this type of file. The last two file types on the list are also .csv files, but are specifically formatted for Palm handheld computers."

Any use of these export files would necessitate an undertanding of and dependence on the specific file format. Remember, it said "any application that accepts this type of file," and many applications would require configuration or scripting that depends on the particular field types and order. So to claim that the export feature is "an undocumented feature" is quite a stretch, in my opinion. It is true that the Church never documented the specific fields, but if we weren't supposed to look in the file and figure out the fields, then we were never supposed to use the export files, and thus the whole feature never should have been implemented. Reductio ad absurdum.
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mkmurray
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#16

Post by mkmurray »

Alan_Brown wrote:Reductio ad absurdum.
Geesh, I feel like all I do is translate what you and boomerbubba say...

"Reduction to the absurd."
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childsdj
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#17

Post by childsdj »

This is not a result of a developer in a cubicle or any hidden agenda. It is most likely a result of missed code, which is why we have a beta like 2.9 is currently in and a great forum like this where people can discuss the needs and discrepencies of Church programs at a local level. It is good to hear your feedback on this and other issues. There are always various reasons for inclusions and exclusions in programs. In this case it is good to see that we found the issue in the beta.

I think we will be able to get it back in for the final release.

Thanks.
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mkmurray
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#18

Post by mkmurray »

DJC wrote:This is not a result of a developer in a cubicle or any hidden agenda. It is most likely a result of missed code, which is why we have a beta like 2.9 is currently in and a great forum like this where people can discuss the needs and discrepencies of Church programs at a local level. It is good to hear your feedback on this and other issues. There are always various reasons for inclusions and exclusions in programs. In this case it is good to see that we found the issue in the beta.

I think we will be able to get it back in for the final release.

Thanks.
Thank you for the response, DJC. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we appreciate your input.

It would be terrific if the CSV exports can find their way back into MLS 2.9. Are you able to tell if there are any plans at all to phase out CSV in favor of vCard down the road?
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childsdj
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#19

Post by childsdj »

I think the option will be both csv and vcard, similar to the way that the stake and ward web site exports currently work. I think we will try and have the export contain both formats for now and then in a later release (because of string translations) we will try and allow the user to select either export. Don't quote me, but I think that is the way it will go.
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#20

Post by RossEvans »

DJC wrote:This is not a result of a developer in a cubicle or any hidden agenda. It is most likely a result of missed code, which is why we have a beta like 2.9 is currently in and a great forum like this where people can discuss the needs and discrepencies of Church programs at a local level. It is good to hear your feedback on this and other issues. There are always various reasons for inclusions and exclusions in programs. In this case it is good to see that we found the issue in the beta.

I think we will be able to get it back in for the final release.

Thanks very much, and I apologize if my "cubicle" remark offended anyone. That was just my inner Dilbert getting out of line.
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