Out if unit leaders not in households list

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Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby jdlessley » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:11 pm

I do not know how long this issue has existed because I just noticed this tonight. At first I thought it was an LDS Tools issue but found it was the same in the LDS.org Directory and in Leader and Clerk Resources.

I was looking for a member of our YSA branch presidency in LDS Tools to get some information. He was not listed in the LDS Tools directory. He was only listed in the Callings list for the branch presidency. The same was true for all other out of unit leaders in the branch. I then checked the LDS.org Directory to see if the same thing was happening there. It was the same. All out of unit leaders only appeared in the "Branch Leaders" section. They did not appear in the "Households" section. I also checked the "Membership" list in Leader and Clerk Resources. No out of unit leaders are listed there either anymore. Out of unit leaders are only listed in the "Organizations" listings.

Before I report this I want to see if others are seeing the same thing.
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby russellhltn » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:20 pm

I'm not sure as that's a bug. They are leaders of the ward, but they are not members of the ward.

The last place to check would be MLS.
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby aebrown » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:18 am

russellhltn wrote:I'm not sure as that's a bug. They are leaders of the ward, but they are not members of the ward.

The last place to check would be MLS.

MLS will certainly include out of unit members in the membership list -- that's part of the design of how out of unit members work in MLS.

But the online tools list only actual members of the unit (and their nonmember spouses, if applicable). Information in those tools come from membership records, and using MLS to add an out of unit member in MLS does not create a membership record.

Finally, the callings associated with an out of unit member do get sent to CDOL, as do all callings, and that's why such leaders show up in leadership directories.

Although I would agree that it's inconsistent how MLS and the online directory treat out of unit members in household lists, from everything I've read, all these pieces are working according to their intended design.

One interesting thing to speculate on is what will happen to the concept of out of unit leaders when the membership features of MLS are moved entirely to LDS.org (that is clearly going to happen in the next year or two). There would have to be some way to add such people to a ward in order to specify their callings, while still leaving their membership records in their home wards; perhaps that would have the effect of making them appear in the household lists of the ward where they hold a leadership calling.

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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby eblood66 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:26 am

aebrown wrote:One interesting thing to speculate on is what will happen to the concept of out of unit leaders when the membership features of MLS are moved entirely to LDS.org (that is clearly going to happen in the next year or two). There would have to be some way to add such people to a ward in order to specify their callings, while still leaving their membership records in their home wards; perhaps that would have the effect of making them appear in the household lists of the ward where they hold a leadership calling.

I don't know that you'd have to add them to the ward to add them to a calling. If they just provide a way to enter an MRN and full name (to validate you know who the MRN actually belongs to) as an alternative to selecting someone in the ward then that would be enough to enter them in the calling. That would seem to be the simplest solution. There would only be a single step for adding an out-of-unit member to a calling and releasing them wouldn't require removing them from both the calling and the ward list.

Hopefully we'll see soon enough if the long awaited ability to edit callings on Clerk Resources actually gets released soon.

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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby jdlessley » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:13 am

russellhltn wrote:I'm not sure as that's a bug. They are leaders of the ward, but they are not members of the ward.

If not a bug, then the LDS.org Directory, LDS Tools, and in Leader and Clerk Resources has been changed in the manner in which out of unit leaders are handled in rolls and lists. For several years, until within the last couple of weeks, out of unit leaders had been appearing in the list of households in the LDS.org Directory, in the directory in LDS Tools, and in membership and organization lists in Leader and Clerk Resources. The inclusion of out of unit leaders in rolls and lists was providing valuable features.

russellhltn wrote:The last place to check would be MLS.

The out of unit membership records have not changed. I will have to check the MLS rolls for Elders Quorum and Relief Society this Sunday to see if anything has changed there.
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby russellhltn » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:38 am

jdlessley wrote:If not a bug, then the LDS.org Directory, LDS Tools, and in Leader and Clerk Resources has been changed in the manner in which out of unit leaders are handled in rolls and lists. For several years, until within the last couple of weeks, out of unit leaders had been appearing in the list of households in the LDS.org Directory, in the directory in LDS Tools, and in membership and organization lists in Leader and Clerk Resources. The inclusion of out of unit leaders in rolls and lists was providing valuable features.


You might want to double-check your data point. I went to check on our Student Single branch, but I suspect they've moved the President's record into the branch, because I can't find him elsewhere in the stake. I've checked the directory and LDS Tools and he is showing up in the membership lists. But again, I'm not seeing him elsewhere in the stake so that makes me suspicious. But I do find his wife - alone.

I'm pretty sure that the information for the on-line systems comes from CMIS - which wouldn't be aware of out-of-unit callings. That's why non-members don't show up (except for spouses which is pulled from the marriage record rather than from a non-member record sent by MLS.)
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby jdlessley » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:11 pm

russellhltn wrote:You might want to double-check your data point.

I don't know what you mean by data point. But I have a Member List printout from Leader and Clerk Resources made on 21 July of the YSA branch of which I am an out of unit clerk and that list included all out of unit leaders. I also have a 21 July membership printout from LCR for the Elders Quorum and Relief Society in which the out of unit leaders are listed. For myself and one branch presidency counselor where our wives have callings in the branch our households were included in the Directory on LDS.org and in LDS Tools (I created those households in the YSA branch MLS).

I used the LDS Tools regularly through 22 July before I went on vacation and all the out of unit leaders were listed in the LDS Tools Directory, the online Directory of households, and in the Member List in LCR. Only after returning from vacation did I notice the change to all the directories and lists that no longer displayed out of unit leaders.

I checked MLS on Sunday and nothing has changed there. All out of unit leaders are listed as expected. The two out of unit leader households are there also. In MLS The EQ and RS member lists include the out of unit leaders as they did before. MLS directory printouts still include the out of unit leaders as before.

russellhltn wrote:I'm pretty sure that the information for the on-line systems comes from CMIS - which wouldn't be aware of out-of-unit callings.

That is correct. Callings come from CDOL. Membership information comes from CMIS. But that does not explain why out of unit leaders were included in service unit membership lists prior to either late July or early August and now they are not included.

Is the change intentional or is it a bug?
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby russellhltn » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:24 pm

jdlessley wrote:I don't know what you mean by data point.

For not knowing, you sure did a good job of answering it. <grin>

What I meant was to double-check to make sure of the situation.

I'll ping the developers. It just surprises me they were in the directory at all.
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby sbradshaw » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:02 pm

What version of LDS Tools are you using?
My version of LDS Tools (for iOS) does show out-of-unit members in the directory (in addition to under callings), a feature which I believe was added sometime within the last month. As far as I know, they have never shown up in the LDS.org directory, except under callings.
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Re: Out if unit leaders not in households list

Postby jdlessley » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:27 pm

sbradshaw wrote:What version of LDS Tools are you using?

Android LDS Tools 2.3.1. A sync on Wednesday brought back the out of unit leaders in the directory.

sbradshaw wrote:As far as I know, they have never shown up in the LDS.org directory, except under callings.

I have printouts from LCR > Membership > Member List and LCR > Organizations > Elders Quorum and Relief Society that had out of unit leaders on the lists. I had an LDS.org Directory that also had out of unit leaders. All were printed on 21 July.
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